How Wise Guy Delivered The Sopranos Postscript We Didn’t Know We Needed
September 2024
Documentarian Alex Gibney opens up about his exploration of the grit and guts it took to bring one of television’s most influential series to life. When HBO first approached Alex Gibney about making a docuseries about The Sopranos, he was inclined to say no. As much as the Academy Award-winning director loved the show, he wasn’t interested in… Continue reading How Wise Guy Delivered The Sopranos Postscript We Didn’t Know We Needed
Documentarian Alex Gibney opens up about his exploration of the grit and guts it took to bring one of television’s most influential series to life.
When HBO first approached Alex Gibney about making a docuseries about The Sopranos, he was inclined to say no. As much as the Academy Award-winning director loved the show, he wasn’t interested in creating a sizzle reel about it, which makes sense when you consider Gibney’s filmography. This is the man who’s peeled back layers of power and corruption in films like Taxi to the Dark Side and Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief—and recently spoke up about streaming platforms’ outsized influence in the production of documentaries. Simply repackaging a TV show wasn’t in his DNA. On top of that, Gibney wondered what could possibly be left to say about one of the most talked about shows of the 21st century. He didn’t want to just show a bunch of clips of people yapping about how great The Sopranos was.
But then came lunch with David Chase, the mastermind behind Tony Soprano’s twisted world. “I was enchanted with him,” Gibney tells me during our late-August chat. Over the course of their shared meal, Gibney realized how personal the show was for Chase and, with that, found a new, worthwhile way to explore the series. “After my lunch with David, I was like, ‘I’m all in if you’re in, David,’ Gibney recalls. And so what began as a side-eye turned into an exploration of the grit and guts it took to bring one of television’s most influential series to life.
The result is Wise Guy, an artful and intimate look at the life and mind of David Chase. In it, Gibney has fun with the personal connection that inspired him, cheekily embracing the role of a therapist to Chase by having him bare his soul on a set resembling Dr. Melfi’s famous office. (Conspiracy theory alert: Does that mean David Chase is Tony Soprano?) He also interviews various execs, writers, and cast members, who generously reflect on their time making The Sopranos and the mommy issues that united them all.
Following Wise Guy’s premiere on Max this past Saturday, Esquire caught up with Gibney to talk about his deep dive into The Sopranos and the current state of the documentary. This conversation has been edited for clarity and length.
ESQUIRE: Wise Guy is a docuseries about a hugely influential writer and director that is airing on the hugely influential network where it originally premiered—and HBO asked you to helm it. What kind of restrictions were put on you, if any, and how did you maintain your vision?
ALEX GIBNEY: There really weren’t any restrictions put on me. And David [Chase] participated with the understanding that it was my film. In fact, I think he was relieved because he didn’t want to have to be the executive producer or the curator of The Sopranos. He was happy to have somebody come in from the outside and do an angle he hadn’t thought of. Over time you develop trust with somebody, and he shared a lot with me—not only in our conversation, but also a treasure trove of home movies and photographs.
There’s so much insight about The Sopranos in Wise Guy. What do you think is the most revelatory information you included?
Almost every writer in the writer’s room had big mommy issues. Tony’s mom was patterned after David’s mom. But he thought it was unique. And then to discover all these other people who had mommy issues? Everybody had mommy issues on this set—and I would not exempt myself from that. That was interesting for everyone, and it’s not something I expected going in.
There was a part of me that watched this series and was struck by how rough show business is. These people were really afraid of losing their jobs!
Show business is rough. They talk about how in the editing room, you have to kill your darlings. They also talk about that for writers in terms of certain paragraphs and characters. The willingness to be ruthless. There was something of the mob boss in David, too. The approach he took was: This is a mob show. Some people have got to go. Nancy Marchand was that one exception. As you know, the original first season was supposed to end with Tony killing his own mother. But Nancy Marchand reached out to him and said, “Keep me working.” There’s something so poignant about that. Where art meets life and you’re reckoning with a work of art, but you’re also reckoning with working actors with whom you have personal relationships. It turns out to be a very human endeavor.
David Chase had enormous responsibility, and he had enormous authority.
How do you think David Chase comes across in this series? Did he seem worried about that while you were filming?
There was some anxiety from David, but at the end of the day, David is presented as an incredibly talented, hardworking, difficult, but deeply empathetic man who cares more than anything about doing good work.
Was your original vision to make a series about The Sopranos or make a series about David Chase?
It’s funny you asked that, because David kept asking me that throughout. I would tell him it’s about both, but I can’t tell you until I get to the end which one it’s about more. Documentary filmmaking is not unlike fiction filmmaking, except that you write the script at the end instead of the beginning. And one of the things you’re discovering is what is the material that seems relevant to your inquiry versus stuff that’s interesting to you that seems to branch off in unexpected ways. Honestly, I couldn’t divorce myself for the love I had for the show. So to be able to have fun with some of the clips and to invest in some of the filmmaking was delicious fun.
Speaking of loving the show, how did you navigate your fandom while pursuing this story?
I just finished a film about Paul Simon and his creative process. Some of what I learned on that film helped me figure out how to work on this film. When you’re talking to somebody, you’re entering into a relationship with them. It’s a real relationship, but at the same time, you’re also doing a job. And your job at the end of the day is not to serve the subject, but to serve the viewer and to bring to the viewer some sense of deeper understanding about the subject. If you’re not doing that, then you’re just making commercials.
David and I are friends, but at the same time, there was stuff and people… not everybody I spoke to was… some of the people I spoke to had complicated relationships with David. Let’s put it that way.
It seemed that way. You talked to the writer, Robin Greene, whom Chase fired. You also asked Chase about other people’s ideas and if there was ever tension among the writers. How did he react to these topics?
It’s always a little bit awkward. You don’t want to ask questions that might upset anybody, but you need to ask the questions. David responded reasonably honestly. There’s a moment where he’s talking about his role as the head honcho, and how he would get frustrated when he felt that the writers weren’t bringing him good enough material. But then he reflected and said maybe they weren’t because I said no so many times. He was reckoning with his own role. He had enormous responsibility, and he had enormous authority. And at times that tuned him out to what might otherwise have been the source of some good material.
Did you feel the need to protect him from other people’s opinions?
No, not really. I included Frank Renzulli and Robin in the show, or even Chris Albrecht. People have views about David. I didn’t share with him the transcripts of the interviews that I did with other people. But he saw who was in the film.
I want to ask you about some of the material you used from the original series. You included what many consider to be two of the most difficult scenes to watch in The Sopranos—Ralphie brutally murdering the Ba-Da-Bing stripper and a rather extended excerpt of the scene in which Dr. Melfi is raped. Walk me through your reasoning.
I felt I had to include it, because it was one of those moments that set The Sopranos apart. There are some shows that make you extremely uncomfortable and show you a level of violence that you may find deeply repugnant and wildly upsetting. I thought that if we avoided it in the documentary, then we were copping out. How do you re-create that discomfort but at the same time not be exploitative about it? We tried to walk that line.
Both in the show—and also in the doc—you have to feel how upsetting that rape is to understand the importance it was to the character. That’s what we were getting at. It wasn’t exploitative for the sake of being exploitative. It was there to serve a larger purpose in the story—which was, Melfi is going to be presented with a moment where she sees a new deal with the devil. Does she sic Tony on her rapist because she’s not getting justice? You have to feel enough for her having experienced that rape to know that motherfucker deserves everything he gets. Maybe she should have Tony kill him. I felt the emotional valence of the brutality of that rape needed to be included for you to properly understand the nobility of her choice not to engage Tony in revenge.
The nobility comes through, and it’s not something I had thought about before when I watched the series. But people have already seen this rape. They can picture it and be terrified. The actors talked about the importance of that scene and Melfi’s nobility, so why still excerpt it?
These aren’t easy decisions, and you have to take them within the context of what it is that you’re doing. You have an awesome responsibility when you are reckoning with images of that kind of brutality and violence, but sometimes it’s warranted to include them because otherwise you are undermining the actual pain and experience of things like that. And then it becomes a trope instead of being confronted with the cruelty and reality of what it is.
When you interviewed Lorraine Bracco about it, did you get the sense that she also believed in the power of including those visuals to make that larger point?
I think ultimately she did, though it was an uncomfortable conversation to have. I give credit to my producer, Ophelia. She pushed me to return to it during the interview, and I did. She was so deeply upset as you saw that David and the writing team—it was actually Robin Greene who wrote that script—that they would make the decision to have her raped. Her initial inclination was “Why would you do that to her?” But David had an answer for her, and she appreciated the answer. And then when they discussed doing the scene itself, she said, “Tell that guy to be ready.”
There was other stuff we could have included about it, like how difficult it was for the actor playing the rapist, who’s a very sweet guy, to have to get into that role. It was really uncomfortable for him. But that goes to a larger issue related to the creation of this whole series and how the writers treated some of the ugly aspects of their own selves to get at the ugly aspects of human nature. There’s a brutal honesty to the show that people appreciate.
There was a moment toward the end of the first episode when Chase talked about The Sopranos getting picked up from the pilot. You said, “They trusted the instincts of the creator.” It came across to me as a pointed remark about the current state of the media industry.
I agree. It was one of the things that interested me about The Sopranos and also one of the things that so surprised me about HBO of that period. And to some extent, still HBO, but the trust in the creator. In other words, you see a story that you like, you meet the writer, and you say, “You know what you’re doing. We believe in your vision. We’re going to support your vision.” And then you leave it to the creator to do it. Rather than say, “Here’s the formula we’ve got. We think it’s a really good formula, and it’s tried and true. Just do this.” It doesn’t feel as important to me.
But that’s the age we live in, right?
Yeah, I agree. It’s not always that way, but you hear the stories about notes calls constantly referring to the algorithms and what you need at the end of this act or that act. This is not just this age. It was relevant to TV in the mid-’90s, too. But HBO said, “No, we’re not going to manufacture this. You know, we’re going to give it to you. Go for it.” So, was it a comment? Yes. But I was also asking him the question. He almost couldn’t believe it, because he had come out of network television. He felt like he had died and gone to heaven.
Are we at a peak manufacturing moment right now? If so, how in the hell do we get out of it?
These things are cyclical. Right now, there’s a consolidation in the media and also a consolidation with some major players who see the entertainment business as a sideline. It’s not their main gig, so there is a rigidity to the system. But that often gets solved by something new coming along, whether it’s a distribution mechanism or a different kind of story, and suddenly audiences flock to it. I can remember when the studio system was running itself into the ground in the movie business in the early-to-mid-’60s. And then along comes an independent film called Easy Rider, and it makes a fortune at the box office. Suddenly all the studio execs were like, “Give me some young kids. Get them over here right away. We gotta make a movie like that.”
You don’t sound resigned about the stage we’re in.
It’s upsetting at this moment, but it’s like the bottom of Pandora’s box. There’s a lot of bad shit that comes out, but at the bottom is hope.
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Recent links: Mea Maxima Culpa press coverage & the Pope’s resignation
In the wake of the first resignation by a pope in six centuries, Jigsaw’s Mea Maxima Culpa, which is currently screening on HBO and in limited release, has been a large part of the conversation. Director Alex Gibney has given interviews where he praises the Pope’s decision to resign, saying “his time as Pope has… Continue reading Recent links: Mea Maxima Culpa press coverage & the Pope’s resignation
Mea Maxima Culpa is mentioned in coverage of the Pope’s resgination
Visit NBCNews.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy In the wake of Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation, announced February 11, media quickly raised questions about the reasons behind the Pope’s decision. Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God debuted on HBO Documentaries one week before, and media outlets looked to… Continue reading Mea Maxima Culpa is mentioned in coverage of the Pope’s resgination
An interview with Glenn Frey and Don Henley on “History of the Eagles”
Following a great reception at Sundance last month, “History of the Eagles” was the focus of a New York Times ArtsBeat blog post. The story is an interview with Eagles band leaders Glenn Frey and Don Henley, explaining how the project came about. Frey, in the interview: I think the first thing we had in… Continue reading An interview with Glenn Frey and Don Henley on “History of the Eagles”
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Don Henley & Glenn Frey on History of the Eagles: Parts 1 & 2 – ArtsBeat blog
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New York Times previews The Last Gladiators
“History of the Eagles” premieres February 15 on Showtime
Our new two-part music documentary, “History of the Eagles” premieres on Showtime in February. A description of the film: The Eagles celebrate their 40th anniversary with this two-part documentary. Using never before seen home movies, archival footage, and new interviews with all current and former band members, the film provides an intimate look into the… Continue reading “History of the Eagles” premieres February 15 on Showtime
Mea Maxima Culpa Premieres on HBO on February 4
Our newest film, Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God, premieres this Monday, February 4, at 9PM/8C on HBO, and will be available on HBO On Demand starting February 5. A description of the film followed by the trailer: Mea Maxima Culpa examines the abuse of power in the Catholic Church through the story of… Continue reading Mea Maxima Culpa Premieres on HBO on February 4
Last Gladiators in Theaters February 1st
Here are Showtimes and Locations: February 1, 2013 Cinema Village 22 East 12th Street, New York, NY 10003 February 15, 2013 St. Anthony Main Theatre 115 SE Main Street, Minneapolis, MN 55414 February 22, 2013 The Manor 1729 Murray Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15217 For more information visit the official website for The Last Gladiators.
Zero Dark Thirty’s Wrong and Dangerous Conclusion
It’s difficult for one filmmaker to criticize another. That’s a job best left to critics. However, in the case of Zero Dark Thirty, about the hunt for Osama bin Laden, an issue that is central to the film — torture — is so important that I feel I must say something. Mark Boal and Kathryn… Continue reading Zero Dark Thirty’s Wrong and Dangerous Conclusion
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Variety says Mea Maxima Culpa is “an expansive and authoritative study” of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church
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Sneak preview of We Steal Secrets: The Story of WikiLeaks
Two New Jigsaw Films to Premiere at Sundance
We’re excited to announce that two of our films, We Steal Secrets: The Story of WikiLeaks and History of the Eagles, will have their world premieres at the 2013 Sundance Film Festival in January. For more info, as well as the other films at the festival, check out the official Sundance site.
Mea Maxima Culpa on Academy Award shortlist
Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God was announced as one of the 15 documentaries on the shortlist for this year’s Academy Awards. The full list of films: “Ai Weiwei: Never Sorry,” Never Sorry LLC “Bully,” The Bully Project LLC “Chasing Ice,” Exposure “Detropia,” Loki Films “Ethel,” Moxie Firecracker Films “5 Broken Cameras,”… Continue reading Mea Maxima Culpa on Academy Award shortlist
Mea Maxima Culpa in Theaters
Our new film, Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God, is now in theaters in New York and Los Angeles, with an additional screening in San Francisco this coming Tuesday. See below for locations and links to showtimes. NEW YORK Film Forum, 11/16 – 11/29 LOS ANGELES Laemmle Monica, 11/16 – 11/22 SAN… Continue reading Mea Maxima Culpa in Theaters
Road to Recovery event today in Belleville, NJ
A brief announcement for anyone in the area: What: A demonstration and leafleting outside a Hall of Fame induction ceremony of the Essex Catholic High School Foundation. Essex Catholic High School was located in Newark and East Orange, NJ, and closed in 2003. When: Friday, November 16, 2012 from 5:30 PM until 7:00 PM. Where: On the… Continue reading Road to Recovery event today in Belleville, NJ
A Message From Orwa
Dear Friends in Syria and around our brave new world, Your outstanding solidarity with me, during my three weeks trip under Syria’s ground, had the most touching impact. You have all made what could have been a much longer and more violent journey a much easier one, no matter how unforgettable it is. Now, after… Continue reading A Message From Orwa
Free Orwa
Alex Gibney and Lawrence Wright reach out to the global film community to call for the release of Syrian filmmaker Orwa Nyrabia.
Mea Maxima Culpa to debut at Toronto Film Festival
Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God will debut at the Toronto International Film Festival in September. The trailer for the film has just been released:
Catching Hell Nominated for Sports Emmy
Catching Hell is one of six films nominated in the “Outstanding Sports Documentary” category for the 33rd Annual Sports Emmy Awards! The full list of nominees: A Game of Honor Catching Hell McEnroe/Borg: Fire & Ice Runnin’ Rebels of UNLV The Marinovich Project Unguarded
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Catching Hell is a “many-layered and deeply unsettling re-creation of Mr. Bartman’s hell”
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Boston Globe calls Magic Trip “stories are out of this world”
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LA Times: “Alex Gibney and Alison Ellwood have realized Kesey’s dream”
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New York Times OpEd on Magic Trip and The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test
Magic Trip in the New York Times
With its opening in theaters this past Friday, Magic Trip has been gathering plenty of attention in the press. Count the New York Times among those who’ve noticed the film. Magic Trip was featured in a piece earlier this week on the front page of the Times website. The article, “Film Hitches a Weird Ride… Continue reading Magic Trip in the New York Times
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Artforum calls Magic Trip a “small miracle of a documentary”